Improving Metabolic Health through the Gut: Rich Maurer’s HMO Success Story

Improving Metabolic Health through the Gut: Rich Maurer's HMO Success Story

Adapted from episode 94 of The Perfect Stool podcast and edited for readability with Rich Maurer.

Lindsey: Welcome to the podcast, Rich.

Rich Maurer: Yes, thank you, Lindsey. I really appreciate you having me on your podcast. I have to say I really enjoy your podcast, been listening for probably over a year. Then there’s one thing I did not see, though until recently, that you’re actually sitting on a little stool. So I assume you intended that as a play on words. Well done there.

Lindsey: Thank you. That’s funny you say that because I thought of that right at the very beginning and not much since then. No one’s ever mentioned it. But that was part of the design of the cover photo.

Rich Maurer: Sure. Now everybody knows.

Lindsey: Indeed, now they do. Secret’s out. So you reached out to me because I had interviewed Bo Berman from Layer Origin about their human milk oligosaccharides or HMO prebiotic. And you’d had some interesting results that you’re tracking using stool tests following your use of that prebiotic, and we’ll get into your results in a minute. But can we start with what your starting conditions were that made you want to try it?

Rich Maurer: Right, you know, I listened to your podcast and others, and I hear so many people that are really struggling with all sorts of health problems. And I always considered myself a fairly healthy person, even though lifelong migraines, lifelong IBS-D, decades of asthma, lots of family history of various things. But I said to myself, I’m pretty fit, I exercise. I don’t have heart disease, diabetes, cancer, you know, I’m on some prescriptions, but whatever, you know, I’m pretty healthy. But I realized I was fairly fit but not actually that healthy. Then COVID happened actually, that was a big point, January of 2021. Got COVID, for the first time, really bad case of it. Wasn’t hospitalized, so wasn’t life-threatening or anything but really, really sick for a couple of weeks and had some serious gut symptoms from that. A couple of episodes of excruciating gut pain, and my wife was so kind, she started looking for some foods and diets that could help during that time. So I look back on that time, and I say, I thank God for COVID. And I say that carefully not to say that I’m glad that COVID exists, that people would be harmed or killed from it. But the impact of COVID in my life was really beneficial, was a turnaround, helped us to look at our diet or overall health. So we started on that time, a FODMAP diet, which I’d never heard of before. Not sure if it helped, but I think just eating good food and getting rid of other things. And then the first thing I noticed was migraines went away. I had a migraine 24 hours for two weeks. Shortly after that, they were going away. And I think that was mostly elimination of sugar is what that was. And then through nutrition, continued exercise, and then the prebiotics –  HMO is one prebiotic we’ll talk about –  I was able to eliminate migraines, IBS-D, asthma. And a more recent discovery, which I didn’t start with, was that my HbA1C, you know, it’s an average of your glucose in your blood, went down by 14% from a pre-diabetic level to an optimal level, and then also lowered my cholesterol, triglycerides, and LDL by 15%. And then went off all prescription meds, and I feel like at age 59, I’m healthier than I’ve been in decades.

Lindsey: That’s awesome. And so I’m sure people are interested in particular in the IBS-D. Do you feel that the HMOs had an impact on that? Or did something else prior to you trying HMOs have an impact on that?

Rich Maurer: That’s a great question. And I’m not absolutely certain. But getting off of dairy products seemed to have the biggest impact. I think it’s multifactorial, but for me, I think it was the dairy products. And I’ve gone my whole life and I don’t understand that, you know,

Lindsey: I am lactose intolerant. And I knew that and I took pills for that, you know, lactose digestant tablets for years. But it wasn’t until I read this book, that ironically was sitting in the bathroom at a place I was working at. And it was all about poop. Every single page was a different kind of poop. And then there was one that was called the lactose poop. And it was like loose, painful. And I was like, that’s exactly what it is when I don’t take enough enzymes, or when I’m not careful, or I eat too much. And then just try and throw some ice cream on top. That was exactly what it was like. It took me reading that book to realize that this. That was long before I was a gut health coach.

Rich Maurer: Sure, yeah. Interesting. Just curious. I’ve just started experimenting with lactase. I’ve only done it a couple of times. I’ve been so quote unquote afraid of dairy products. Although yogurt, some fermented dairy doesn’t seem to bother me at all. Does Lactaid help in the short term and occasional?

Lindsey: When I eat dairy now, I will take a lactase enzyme. Yeah. And Lactaid is one of the brands of those. Yes, it definitely helps. But I found that it was never foolproof, right? Like if I ate too much, and then I just tried to try to stick a dessert on top that had lactose in it or, or if I just didn’t time it right, you know, maybe I didn’t take enough with my meal, or my dose wasn’t big enough, or just there’s too much food in there. It just didn’t mix up right and take care of the lactose. It was really bad coming out the other end.

Rich Maurer: Gotcha, gotcha. No, thanks for that. Yeah, I stay away from dairy. Most of the time, it’s an occasional treat.

Lindsey: So can you just explain a little bit about what HMOs are, since it’s been a while since I’ve had that podcast on them?

Rich Maurer: Sure. HMOs stand for human milk oligosaccharides. And oligosaccharide is a medium chain sugar, it’s non digestible by humans. So HMOs would fit into the larger category of a prebiotic fiber. And again, they are soluble fiber, indigestible to humans, but they directly feed the good gut bacteria. One of the things that really fascinates me about HMOs is the fact that it’s the third leading ingredient in human breast milk and mother’s breast milk. And I used to work in hospital labs, I got a Bachelor’s of Science degree, but most of my life, I’ve been a pastor. So I definitely look at life through what we call a Biblical worldview. And I see this as the creator, the divine designer, just putting this into his creation, the fact that a large part of mom’s breast milk contains these HMOs, which again, since they’re not digestible by the baby, or adult and any human, it doesn’t help the baby directly. It only feeds the baby’s beneficial bacteria. So that was all designed and put into HMOs. But obviously, HMOs are not human breast milk. It’s a derived thing in the laboratory that contains only the HMO and not the other aspects of the breast milk derived from cow milk. I think that’s correct, right?

Lindsey: Yeah. That’s what I recall from my conversation with Bo Berman. Yeah. And that’s a beautiful perspective. The other perspective I heard on a podcast yesterday was, it may be that we’re just the host for the bacteria, that they’re actually the ones in charge, and we’re just carriers for the bacteria. There’s more of their cells than there are of us.

Rich Maurer: That’s a very pessimistic viewpoint. But yeah, okay.

Lindsey: Just a floating viewpoint. Anyway, what kinds of changes did you see in your stool test results and other test results after being on the Layer Origin HMOs? And what dose were you taking of them?

Rich Maurer: Right, so let me back up and say, before I discovered HMO, I was taking some other prebiotic fibers, about five different ones for a while. Now I’m down to two or three. So I did a stool test while on five prebiotic fibers, did a second stool test, then started on an HMO, and then the third stool test. I’ve got a couple of videos out that monitor the progress. But I saw, by far, the most dramatic changes just with the HMO. And there are three keys that I saw, which I think are really absolutely crucial for a healthy gut or elimination of what would be a leaky gut. The opposite of that would be an increase in butyrate. I’m just going to list these, and we can talk about them: an increase in butyrate, an increase in gram-positive bacteria, which are the “healthy” bacteria in the gut, and an increase in a certain type of gram-positive bacteria, specifically Bifidobacteria. I can talk through those a little bit.

Butyrate is a short-chain fatty acid that is actually what’s called a postbiotic. So the gram-positive bacteria in your gut produce that as a byproduct of their own metabolism, which is again, another one of these symbiotic relationships that benefits all of us. All the species in our body need butyrate. In fact, in the colon, there’s a single layer of epithelial cells called colonocytes. The only thing separating all the fecal material, all the bacteria, all the toxins is a single layer of these colonocytes that separate all of that from your bloodstream. So when we talk about a leaky gut, we’re talking about fecal material, especially the toxins that get through that single layer of colonocytes. Something called tight junctions will open up and allow these things to get through. But the colonocytes, that’s their food. They consume butyrate. So that will heal them and give them the energy that they need to repair or maintain a healthy gut. So that’s butyrate, a short-chain fatty acid.

Secondly, an increase in gram-positive bacteria. And why that is so important is because the gram-negative bacteria produce a toxin called LPS (lipopolysaccharide) that exists on the cell wall of the gram-negative bacteria. If it gets into your bloodstream, it’s a toxin. If it gets in your bloodstream, it can travel anywhere in your body and cause systemic inflammation, leading to all manner of metabolic disorders and diseases. So it’s extremely important to reduce that, and one of the ways you reduce LPS is by reducing the numbers of gram-negative bacteria. And you do that by also increasing the gram-positive bacteria. I’ll give you my butyrate results. I went from 52% butyrate. And now let me say these numbers are from a website called Biomesight. So what you do is you take your gut test, and any gut test that has fast Q data, you can upload it to Biomesight. And I love it because they track the changes. So I’ve got three stool tests that are uploaded to Biomesight. So I can literally chart it, it’s actually charted for you, the increase is specifically in regard to butyrate. They’re not measuring directly the amount of butyrate in your gut, they’re measuring the bacteria that produce butyrate. So when I talk about percentages, I’m talking about the percentages of butyrate-producing bacteria. And mine went from 52% to 65%, which, at that time, several months ago, put me at the 100th percentile of everyone that had the data on Biomesight. So that was a massive increase. Since then, my daughter, actually, she’s second place, as far as I know, she went from 41% to 67%. And now she’s at 99%. I just talked to a friend yesterday, he went from 49% to 74%. So that’s a tremendous amount of butyrate, right? You look at his distribution chart, and it’s literally off the chart. It’s so high, and my daughter and this friend only utilized HMO as a prebiotic, whereas I had the other prebiotic fibers prior to that.

Lindsey: Which stool tests are you using that you can afford to be doing this frequent tests on everybody?

Rich Maurer: Right? Well, of course, I’m not paying for their tests. Yeah. But paying for my wife’s and mine. I used what used to be Thryve Inside (now Ombre) through discount codes. I don’t pay more than $60. It’s not cheap. But compared to some others, a couple $100 each, it becomes more tenable.

Lindsey: And is that 16S? Or is that metagenomic?

Rich Maurer: That’s 16S.

Lindsey: Okay.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, I believe. So butyrate results have been fantastic. And then talking about an increase in gram-positive bacteria. It’s my daughter’s who holds that record. My friend increased his greatly, his went from 50% (so these are also percentages). So he had an even amount of gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria to 87% gram-positive bacteria, where my daughter went from 62 to 89% gram-positive bacteria. So the vast majority of their colon is filled with healthy, gram-positive bacteria, which again is going to reduce the LPS and the toxins, etc. In regard to LPS, just for a moment here, this is just an analogy that helps me think about the damaging effects of toxins. E. coli is a gram-negative bacteria. And most people are familiar with E. coli outbreaks and they cause hospitalization, and unfortunately, sometimes death. That’s a different toxin that’s called a Shiga toxin. And that toxin, of course, it’s similar, right? It gets in your bloodstream, it travels throughout, shuts down organs, especially kidneys. So I say that toxin from a gram-negative bacteria can kill you fast, whereas LPS from gram-negative bacteria can kill you slowly. That’s ultimately what it’s doing. But it’s still a toxin. And it’s this slow killer, really is the way I look at it.

And then thirdly, an increase in a certain type of gram-positive bacteria, specifically Bifidobacterium, and this is where I did a lot of research just looking for reputable research papers, meta-analysis, etc. And again, what I’m seeing is when you have type 2 diabetes, you consistently show a decrease in Bifidobacteria. And what’s happening is that is decreasing insulin sensitivity or increasing insulin resistance, I can talk about that for a moment. Insulin is what drives glucose into the cells. So if you picture your cell is waiting there, it needs glucose, right, to produce ATP and energy and feed itself. And if the receptors for the insulin are blocked, it can’t get the glucose. That’s insulin resistance. And if that happens, and it continues to happen, of course, your bloodstream increases the amount of glucose, and that then is a measurement of HbA1C, which is a three-month average of glucose in your bloodstream. And that leads to the beginning of type 2 diabetes. But when you increase the Bifidobacteria, it increases the insulin sensitivity, which allows that channel of glucose to regularly enter into your cells. So what I saw is a pretty dramatic decrease. I was at 5.7, my A1C, which was just inside prediabetic, and barely. If I tested the next day, it might have been 5.6. But over about four or five months, it went down to 4.0, which is an optimal level. And as far as I can tell, the only thing I did different was HMO. And of course, during that time, my Bifidobacteria went from almost undetectable. It went up some on  prebiotic fibers and then just skyrocketed on the HMO. And specifically, again, in a symbiotic relationship, one particular species of bacteria that skyrocketed only on HMO is Bifidobacterium adolescentis. And it produces a different type of short-chain fatty acid, propionate. And a key butyrate producer, Faecalibacterium prausnitzii, consumes the propionate produced by the Bifidobacterium adolescentis, and then in turn produces butyrate. So, again, just that symbiotic relationship working together. Those are my changes, both on the gut tests, blood tests, and symptoms.

Lindsey: Yeah, and I have certainly seen studies showing that Bifidobacterium decreases. I think Bifidobacterium infantis is the primary bacteria that starts in the gut of a child who’s born vaginally, at least. Then all Bifidobacteria in general decrease as you age, and I think those decreases are associated with some of the problems of aging or the normal consequences of aging. So yeah, an increase in Bifidobacteria seems like it would be a net positive for sure.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, for sure. Interestingly, I’m helping some family members and friends through this process. We’ve done before and after tests on an HMO, and so far, all of the adults have almost undetectable Bifidobacteria. That’s a small sampling, but it makes you wonder if the average adult has almost zero Bifidobacteria, which is the very thing we need to have lots of. It’s fascinating. Also, in my own experience, I have found that probiotics, which people talk a lot about, hopefully help some people. I was on probiotics for years, and I didn’t see any changes in symptoms. Obviously, it had no impact on my gut test actual bacteria. I’m still not on probiotics, but I do believe that if you’re feeding the bacteria with the prebiotics, then you can seed the gut with probiotics. I think that can be really beneficial. For example, I talked to my friend yesterday, who has skyrocketing gram-positive bacteria and fantastic butyrate levels. His Bifidobacteria was still quite low. It wasn’t nonexistent; it was quite low. So we talked about getting him on a quality probiotic that has mostly Bifidobacteria, and he thought it’s a great idea. We’re going to retest, and I’m really excited to see how that might turn out.

Lindsey: Yeah, that was something interesting to me when I had the folks from Layer Origin. They have a probiotic prebiotic combo formula, the Pure HMO Synbiotic, and I was just looking up the strains in it. So it’s Bifidobacterium bifidum plus the strain number, Bifidobacterium lactis, Bifidobacterium longum. They’ve got three of them in there so that you can help feed it and seed it as you’re going. It’s very reasonably priced at that. I’m on Amazon right now, and I can provide a link for people. It’s $29.69 for 40 billion CFU. Plus, it’s got the 1000 milligrams of HMOs in it. So I thought that was a good deal.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, yes. Thank you for that. Honestly. Can you see how many days supply it is?

Lindsey: I assume that that’s a one-month supply.

Rich Maurer: Let me see. It’s two capsules, 30 servings, okay. By comparison, just the HMO powder is 1000 milligrams. So only HMO, but it’s a 45-day supply.

Lindsey: Right? So you’re going to spend a little bit more to get the probiotics. But if you need to seed that as well, like if you’ve got no Bifidobacteria at all.

Rich Maurer: Exactly. And probiotics get crazy expensive. So that is a good deal. Thank you for reminding me of that one.

Lindsey: Yeah, I think that’s what I had originally tried to take. I just went out after our last recording –  confession: this is the second recording for Rich because I forgot to press record on the first recording. And after our last recording, I’m like, “You know what, I need to try those HMOs again.” So I went out and got some, and I’ve been taking them I’ve been tossing them in my yogurt each day along with any number of other things that I try. I’m not as scientific as you or I should say, I don’t have the patience that you do, to try one thing at a time and have not done the pre and post testing, but just seeing how it impacts me.

Rich Maurer: You’re taking the one with probiotics or no?

Lindsey: I’m just taking the straight HMO powder. I do have another Bifido. I just keep getting free stuff. So sometimes I take a lot of stuff just because someone gave it to me. So yeah, I was on a different probiotic. And now I’m on to another one that I had leftover in my closet.

Rich Maurer: Oh, I’m sure you’ve got a lot. But if you don’t retested, how are you going to know if it’s helped you?

Lindsey: Believe me, I have all sorts of signs. But I’m do have post-infectious IBS. So I just keep getting it over and over again. So my body will tend to overgrow Proteobacteria, which are those gram-negative, and that will just keep reoccurring. So I know that I always need to be fighting that battle.

Rich Maurer: Well, interesting. Yeah, I could see that. Interesting, though. My wife, HMO increased her Akkermansia too much. Akkermansia is a very good, beneficial bacteria. But what happened is she went so high, 20%. Normally, like 1% is pretty good. Most people I found can’t really grow any. She went to 20%. What it did is that reduced butyrate and her gram-positive bacteria, the very good things we’re talking about. So I just said, “Stop taking HMO.” I mean, it’s just one thing. Some people call it the Goldilocks. Yeah, it doesn’t work the same for everybody. So that should be said.

Lindsey: Yeah, there’s an interesting thing that I’ve noticed on stool tests, which is that often people who have H Pylori in their gut have elevated levels of Akkermansia. I don’t know if the test you’re taking shows that one. But I assume that because it causes constipation and some amount of delay in emptying, there’s more time for those Akkermansia to be feeding on the mucus layer. They feed on that mucus layer, so there’s more fuel for them, and then they increase. That’s my theory anyway.

Rich Maurer: Thank you for that. I’ll check to see if Ombre has H. Pylori. Yeah, that’s a really good clue.

Lindsey: Yeah. People who tend towards the Proteobacteria increase . . . Well, I actually just listened to a really good . . . Marc Pimentel, who invented the IBSsmart test and the trio-smart and has done a lot of research on SIBO. He’s a doctor at Cedars Sinai. In SIBO, it’s typically certain gram-negative bacteria that increase. They’re all in the family Proteobacteria. E coli and Klebsiella are two of them. Those are the ones that tend to be increasing in the small intestine in people with SIBO. If you are positive for post-infectious IBS and have positive vinculin antibodies, you typically have a diarrhea type of SIBO, not a constipation type. Although I have seen clients who have positive IBSSmart tests and have constipation type. So obviously things can mix up, like you can have an overgrowth of hydrogen-producing bacteria plus an overgrowth of methanogens, and somehow it all nets out to constipation.

Rich Maurer: Have you seen anyone who could still have H Pylori even though they’re asymptomatic? For example, my wife doesn’t have dysbiosis symptoms.

Lindsey: Oh, people have it all the time. I mean, plenty of healthy people have it. It may just not be overgrown. There’s an entire book written about how it has healthy impacts on us as well. That’s a classic in the world of gut stuff by Martin Blaser, Missing Microbes. The entire book is about H. Pylori.

Rich Maurer: Okay. Yeah, the fact is, it’s expanding our knowledge exponentially, and nobody knows for sure yet. So it is exciting to watch it develop. But certain things you do know with a fair degree of certainty.

Lindsey: Yeah. And your wife’s A1C level went down as well, right?

Rich Maurer: On HMO? It did, it did. But then, because of the results and I mentioned reducing butyrate and gram positive, I took her off of HMO.

Lindsey: Right. But what was the reduction for her?

Rich Maurer: So she was only on it for like four or five weeks, and she went from 6.0 to 5.4 or 5.

Lindsey: So in the pre-diabetic range.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, yes. Yeah. She went from prediabetic to normal.

Lindsey: Yeah. Okay. Again, with all of you, how can you be sure the changes can be attributed to the HMOs and not something else? Like any other diet changes or any other supplements?

Lindsey: Right, good question. In fact, when I did a video about insulin resistance and HMOs, my wife afterwards said, “Well, you know, about the same time you started HMOs, you started on cinnamon, and that is proven in good doses to also lower A1C.” And I was like, “Oh, you’re right.” So what I did is I took myself off of all that cinnamon for three or four months, I think at least four months, and then retested my A1C, and it went down a little lower yet. So I eliminated that variable. And as far as I know, I hadn’t made any other changes.

Lindsey: So if it went down from the 5.9 or it went down from the-

Rich Maurer: It went from 5.7 to 5.0, and then it went down from 5.0 to 4.9, which again is statistically insignificant, but the point is, it didn’t go up after going off the cinnamon.

Lindsey: Okay, right. At the very least, if you’ve got an A1C issue, you could take the cinnamon and HMOs. And you’d be in good shape.

Rich Maurer: There you go.

Lindsey: Yeah. And cinnamon is yummy, too. So I assume you’re taking pills, though, not just sprinkling it on your food?

Rich Maurer: Yeah, you know, to get three to six grams.

Lindsey: Oh, that’s a lot.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, that’s the recommended amount for reducing A1C.

Lindsey: Yeah. And I’m curious as you were reducing your A1C, and your wife, too, did you notice any changes in your energy or anything else?

Rich Maurer: Oh, good question. We both exercise and we’ve made those nutritional dietary changes. So I don’t think either of us noticed it, that I can tell.

Lindsey: Yeah. Okay. So I understand that your daughter, too, was taking the HMOs and that she had some other positive health changes?

Rich Maurer: Yeah, right. Sort of accidentally, you might say, within a couple of weeks of taking the HMOs, she noticed that her acne was improved. She would have had what would be called mild acne, I think in the spectrum of things. But she thought it significantly improved. And in one of my videos, she was kind enough to provide before and after photos. So that intrigued me, of course, so I found plenty of research papers that showed Bifidobacteria and the results that she demonstrated in her gut tests, indeed, can reduce acne.

Lindsey: I’m sure that’s very appealing to the teenagers out there.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, for sure. Or adults that have had acne. Exactly.

Lindsey: Yeah. And so you mentioned at the very beginning about having had COVID and some problems that developed subsequently. And I don’t know if you’ve probably listened to the episodes. Actually, I’m not even sure if I’ve published them yet because I’ve now got like five episodes sitting in my queue to publish. But there was at least one episode where someone was talking about having gotten an ulcer from COVID. And that’s a very rare side effect, which you were talking about excruciating stomach pain. I assume you wouldn’t know if that’s what happened to you.

Rich Maurer: Yeah, I don’t think so. So that was my first bout of COVID in January 2021. This past January 2022, I had COVID again, which I discovered over lots of testing over the summer. And then had a dramatic increase in symptoms. I first noticed some symptoms a couple of weeks after I had COVID in January 2022. But then, a dramatic increase in symptoms over the summer. So, lots of testing done and landed on COVID-induced autonomic dysfunction, which is just another type of long COVID symptoms and a wide variety of symptoms there.

Lindsey: Such as?

Rich Maurer: It would sort of take over and sneak up on me. And it’s never the same thing. And not always all the symptoms at once. But extreme exhaustion, diarrhea, and nausea, feeling flush, rapid increase in both tachycardia and bradycardia. So, an increase in heart rate, decrease in heart rate, increase in blood pressure. I never had a blood pressure problem in my life, and I’m shooting up to 160. Thankfully, in my case, (this can be very debilitating for some people), the symptoms pass quickly. You know, my wife says, “You’re the epitome of the phrase, ‘this too shall pass.'” Literally, Sunday afternoon, I just felt rotten for two hours. But while I’m sitting there, I’m thinking to myself, you know what, in about two hours, I’m going to feel good. And I did, so I’m very thankful for that. But, wide variety of symptoms. So, yeah, that might be something your listeners might key in on because I had a difficult time, first of all, understanding myself but also trying to walk through with my practitioner what this might be, and it seems my experience and things I’ve read that doctors just still even two years right into this COVID, post-COVID, aren’t understanding long COVID, aren’t able to see autonomic dysfunction symptoms, and then connect the dots.

Lindsey: Yeah, no, I have watched many webinars on long COVID and how to treat it and some of the tests that you can use to see what’s going on on the nutritional level. Because there’s a lot of oxidative damage to cells, and you know, you need your antioxidants, and heavy doses post-COVID. There is sometimes damage to blood vessels, and you need to keep those open. So I think L-Arginine. It is known for helping produce nitric oxide, which keeps your blood vessels open. So there are a number of tools that are out there, if you are dealing with that sort of thing.

Rich Maurer: I’d love to get the links to some of those podcasts because I have found so precious little, honestly, it’s just the standard, you know, plenty of hydration and electrolytes and exercise, you know, all things I’m already doing. So, yeah, that’d be great.

Lindsey: Yeah, no problem. So I will put all these links, by the way, in the show notes for the Biomesite where you can upload your results from Ombre and to your videos (here and here) that show the before and after photos and all the stuff, because they’re great videos. I mean, it’s really interesting stuff and you get to see the charts that you’ve made and of how things have gone up and down. Anything else that you want to talk about, though, before we get off?

Rich Maurer: I don’t think so. I think that about covers it, Lindsey.

Lindsey:  Okay, awesome. Well, I think that this is actually a much better conversation than our last one. So we’ve done well.

If you’re struggling with  bloating, constipation, diarrhea, soft stool, acid reflux, IBS, IBD or any type of chronic disease, etc. and want to get to the bottom of it, that’s what I help my clients with. You’re welcome to set up a free, 30-minute breakthrough session with me (Lindsey). We’ll talk about what you’ve been going through and I’ll tell you about my 3- and 5- appointment health coaching programs in which I recommend lab tests, educate you on what the results mean and the protocols used by doctors to fix the problems revealed. Or if you’re ready to jump in right away or can just afford one appointment at a time, you can set up an 1-hour consultation with me.

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