Lindsey: Can you tell me about your own health story and how you came to be doing the work that you do?
Pam Bartha: It all started when I was 28 years old. I’m 65 now, so it was a couple years ago. But I had always been healthy all my life, and I was raising a young family, and I was out on a Sunday afternoon with my family in the park, and I started to notice this black spot in my eye.
I was healthy. I was a little tired, a little rundown, but I had two really young children, but nothing out of the ordinary. That black spot, within three days, it took over the entire vision of my left eye. So it was like I had a black patch on my left eye. Of course, I went to an eye specialist right away, and I got it checked, and he said, “This is a very severe case of optic neuritis.”
Because it was so significant, he referred me right away to in Canada, there’s a really good MS university hospital clinic, and it is on the West Coast, and I was referred there immediately. And I was diagnosed there. They, the experts told me that I had multiple sclerosis. I also had some, which all came at the same time, I started to get some weakness in my legs, severe headaches.
It was like this crazy change in my health. And so with all the symptoms I had, plus the severe optic neuritis, the expert there told me that I had multiple sclerosis. And I was just in shock because I had never been sick. And when you’re sick, you just literally think that the doctors are going to fix you.
And so I thought that I was in good hands, and I thought that they would heal me, but he actually said that there was nothing they could do to change the course of the disease. They didn’t know what caused MS. There was no cure. There was no treatment to cure you. And he said that I would become completely disabled in time.
And I left his office devastated, and I felt like my life was over. I couldn’t understand how a person could go from being totally healthy all your life to all of a sudden this mysterious thing takes over your body. And I left there, just cried all the way home. And by the grace of God, I learned early on, just through crying out to God.
My mother-in-law gave me this book. It was one book that I received, and that book was written by Dr. William Crook. He was a medical doctor at that time. He was a forward thinker. He really understood that the health of the gut, the work that you do, for example, with really understanding. You may have heard too that, and I heard this, but all disease begins in the gut.
And I was so clueless. I had no idea that constipation was… because I had that in my life, and I didn’t realize that could be part of why I got sick. So I devoured his book, and it was talking about how chronic infections were causing all kinds of chronic diseases, including MS. And so that gave me hope that there was something I could do because the neurologist said, “There’s going to be people telling you about all kinds of snake oil cures.” But as the expert, I’m telling you there’s nothing you can do to change the course of your life. You will be completely disabled in time.
So I read his book, Dr. William Crook’s book. You can probably find it in a library. I wouldn’t buy it right now. It’s quite dated, but you can probably find it in a library. There were three other medical doctors that were doing virtually the same thing. They were really focused a lot on candida at that time. Probably like some of the herbs that they also recommended would also deal with other microbes that get out of balance, but they did focus a lot on candida. And I never had a yeast infection as a woman before, so I didn’t really know what candida was, but boy, did I have a lot of gut issues years before I was diagnosed with MS.
And like I said, I just thought that was normal, and I didn’t realize that was a sign that my body was giving me these little warning signs years before. So when I was young, I’d get like stomach aches. We had six kids, so we didn’t get a lot of junk food. But if we ate Chinese food or something, I would be laying on the ground with a stomach ache.
So constipation, stomachache, no allergies or anything else, but just gut symptoms years before. And so that was my journey. That was the start of how I decided to go down this path. So I first implemented it, and I’ve been able to live MS free for 37 years now. I’ve never had another attack. I’ve never used the MS drugs.
And then like you just, when you get your health and your life back, you just want to help others. So then I did go back and I got a science degree, became a certified teacher. And I loved teaching, but my passion was to help other people. So then I left my teaching profession, developed a course.
I’ve been doing this, working with large groups of students I call them, because I’m a health coach and educator, all over the world for at least 10 years now, like in a large group setting with a structured course. And we’re coming up to 10 years now where we have students that took our program 10 years ago, and they’re still living MS free and have recovered from all kinds of other chronic conditions.
Because people think MS, like if you get MS, that’s all you get. But people that have MS, they usually have, within a few years, they have three to five different autoimmune diseases too. So that was another total myth buster for me is that these diseases are not in isolation, that you can have inflammatory bowel, you can have diabetes, you can have cancer, you can have all epilepsy with MS.
And that really stems to what you teach and the work you do about root cause and about the health of the gut, because it just depends on which critters get out of balance and where they end up in the body. They can cause different symptoms, and then we get a different disease label. But really, the root cause is very similar to what I figured out.
What I believe is that there’s three main causes of disease. Number one is nutritional deficiencies, and toxicity is the second one, and when our microbiome is out of balance, these chronic infections. But the crazy thing is that these chronic infections can cause more toxicity in our body than even environmental toxins, which we should address, and they can cause the nutritional deficiencies.
We can be taking supplements, and we’re living in a developed countries, and we’re getting access to a lot of good food, but they can make us deficient in all kinds of different nutrients, and that they can directly and indirectly cause nutritional deficiency symptoms. And so that’s a really important thing is root cause, and that’s what you really focus on.
Lindsey: Yeah. So for you, what was your root cause specifically, and how did you address it?
Pam Bartha: It’s been a journey in learning. So we first learned about candida, and yes, I did have candida, and I felt really good when my doctor put me on a candida medication. But it keeps coming back, and you’re just like, “Why does…”
Like, why does it, it’s still there. So then it’s other microbes are out of balance. So we started to learn about the Lyme infections, the co-infections of Lyme, and that was a few years later. And I believe that out of them, probably Borrelia, but Babesia is one because… long, complicated, but it’s like my blood work has shows those signs, and then symptoms, and all of it coming together, and then even just different practitioners that have energy tested me with either muscle testing or machines, they’re like, “Oh, I’m picking up Babesia in you,” and I don’t even tell them anything about it.
So with all of that, so that’s probably another one. And then more recently, we’ve learned about the larger worms. And so the one thing that has been a significant issue for me was the flukes, and I believe it’s really hard to get diagnosis and even treatment; it’s virtually unrecognized in developed countries.
And so just with the process that we have, we’re able to see them and document them, and the bigger worms are really hardy in our body. They love it in there. They’ve been living there for a long time. They can produce 200,000 eggs in a day, so they can live in adult form, larva, or eggs.
They can hide under biofilms, and then our intestines are folded over each other, so they can kind of hide in little corners. So they are quite challenging. And what I’m seeing a pattern in people that are really sick is that flukes are really common in people that are really sick. At this time, I believe that flukes are probably the most pro-inflammatory, more so than roundworms or even tapeworms.
They can all be a problem, for sure, because like all of them, their larva can move into your central nervous system. They can form cysts. With tapeworm, it’s really well understood, the neurocysticercosis. So I think for the average person to not get too overwhelmed is like to just know your intestines, your digestive tract is like a garden, right?
And if your microbes get out of balance, just like in our garden, we’re not going to end up with one or two types of weeds. We end up with different types of weeds in our garden. So that would be the same thing inside of us. So when we’re out of balance due to the overuse of antibiotics in the past, due to our lifestyle, and hormones with women makes things more interesting too, but we get to the state where we’re really out of balance, and they don’t just stay in the gut.
They move out of the gut. They move into our blood, they move into our tissues, they move into our organs, they move into the central nervous system. And so by the time we have MS, ALS, Parkinson’s, PLS [Primary Lateral Sclerosis], they’re into the central nervous system. And it is more work to treat, it’s more work to recover. But for me, it’s been more for sure Candida, fungal overgrowth is really common with anyone who’s got health issues.
And then the Lyme infections, I would say probably more so Babesia or malaria, I don’t know which one because it’s never been tested, and Borrelia, and then also I’ve passed roundworms. That’s probably more so part of life. But the flukes are definitely just nasty. So yeah, I would say the biggest issue for me was the flukes
Lindsey: Yeah. And so what treatment did you do to address those way back then? Or was it like overtime you kept discovering more things that were part of the picture?
Pam Bartha: So I started working with my doctor and treating candida, and then of course studying under these different doctors and researching more, started bringing herbs in, and I really love herbs to use them when we can.
And then learning about the Lyme, we have just found that liposomal herbs tend to be really good for things like the bacteria and protozoa, like the smaller ones, and fungus. But then when I started learning about the larger worms, I studied under Dr. Simon Yu out of St. Louis, Missouri. He’s a veteran at treating parasites, and so he was sharing just basically how he treats parasites in his patients, and he trains up other doctors.
He invited me to audit his course because of the work we do. And so then it was like working with, where I live, and I believe where you live too, naturopaths can write prescriptions, so my naturopaths were writing prescriptions for specific medications that treat flatworms, and I’d have to say they’re really important.
I’ve tried doing it with just herbs or bringing in the parasite drugs, and for the larger worms that, let’s say, get into the liver/gallbladder area or get deeper into the tissue in the central nervous system, or even the fact that they’re really large, the antiparasitic drugs are really helpful.
They’re tolerated really well. They’re very safe when they’re used properly. They’re decades old. But, and this is what frustrates me so much because with my students, like we’ve learned this and we’re seeing what’s coming out of them, and it’s really hard to find practitioners that understand this, no fault of their own, because they don’t have good tests.
They’re not taught… They’re taught, even integrative practitioners, they’re told that it’s an underdeveloped country issue, right? And that’s the issue with it is that it’s just a lost skill. When I was really young growing up on a farm, the doctors would deworm us regularly, and that was like decades ago.
But now, and even in many countries, some of my students and people I’ve worked with they’re like, “Yeah, my child is being dewormed every year in school.” And we, in our developed countries, do not recognize it. We never treat ourselves. We treat our pets, but we don’t treat ourselves.
And what’s shocking is veterinarians are working with sick animals all the time, and some of them are my students, and they’re so sick, and they’ve been working with animals that are infested with parasites because that’s why they have disease, but they’ve never treated themselves, which is crazy.
Lindsey: Interesting. So you mentioned that the testing isn’t good, and like I had Dr. D’Angelo on here who does the Parawellness testing, and of course I see all sorts of stool tests and virtually never see anything other than Blastocystis hominis or Dientamoeba fragilis, which, some people would argue are not necessarily the kinds of parasites we need to get rid of.
So I’m curious what your-…
Pam Bartha: That’s right . . .
Lindsey: . . . take is on that, and, why the testing isn’t up to snuff.
Pam Bartha: I think the testing isn’t up to snuff is because we haven’t invested enough attention there, because it’s just like our healthcare system years ago decided to go autoimmune versus root cause.
Before the 1950s, ’60s, all the doctors when they were researching, they were always looking for infectious agents, microbes that could be causing disease, and then all of a sudden there was a shift to autoimmune. So like Dr. D’Angelo, or I don’t, I can’t remember his name, I did chat with him once before.
We have sent, some of our students have sent… Parawellness, I really do like him. I think that he is very skilled at it, but the problem is he’s dealing with a small sample, and is there necessarily going to be enough material that he can diagnose? So for example, one of our students sent a sample to him, and he said it came back clear, and I believe he spends a lot more time looking than our traditional labs.
A lot of our traditional labs, they don’t even look for worms. So that I think what’s really important is that if you are getting a doctor to, let’s say your, as part of your – like in Canada, it’s part of our standard of care, we can get stool tests done. You need to know what they’re looking at, because a lot of times in, like in Canada, they’re not even looking for worms, and we’ve looked at some of the different labs in the US and a lot of them are not looking for worms.
He would. He would be looking because he’s a retired parasitologist, and he really understands parasites. But again, if you don’t have a dead worm there present, and if there is just not the eggs, and it’s very limited in what you can find. And we used to work with DNA Connections, really good place too, where they’re looking more at DNA of things like Borrelia, Babesia, and maybe other parasites by now.
But they have shared, it’s really difficult because they’re taking such a tiny little sample, right? And they’re analyzing that, and the problem is that we’re spending, maybe for some of the testing like that, it’s like $1,000. And is it going to show everything? No. So I think that, if it’s not too cost-prohibitive, that it’s well worth your time to.
But for my students, we just say, “Just save your money,” because we aren’t picking it up, unfortunately. And even Dr. Klinghardt, who’s one of my mentors, he has worked with the leading parasitologists in the world, and they tell him that the best tests at this time pick up probably 10% of what people are dealing with.
So yes, it can show things like different types of protozoa, like Blastocystis hominis or different entamoeba. But is that what’s causing their symptoms? So that one student that did send in the sample to ParaWellness, and he sent back, “No, you’re clear.” And the day she got the test result back, she passed this nasty, big, I think it was a whipworm, and so she put it back in the bottle, sent it to him, and he goes, “Yep, that’s a whipworm.”
So that’s the frustrating thing of where we’re at. And I know he means well, and he does his best, but it’s like yeah … and too, like even in the blood, like some of these little roundworms are nocturnal, so in certain countries they know to test after 10 or 12 o’clock at night kind of thing. So they hide. They want to stay inside of us, so that’s the challenge.
Lindsey: Yeah. So would taking . . . I know that some of the better parasite stool tests would take three days of stool to try and have a bigger sample. Would that at least increase the odds you’d find something?
Pam Bartha: You can do that, but we just have not had success with that at all.
Lindsey: Okay …
Pam Bartha: that’s where we’re at right now. That’s just my humble opinion. And yeah … when I work with people it’s like we’re trying to make things so that when they’re spending the money, that they’re actually going to get meaningful information that’s going to help move them forward, and if… I think that’s a thing for you to see, too.
If you consistently are getting stool tests and nothing is showing up, I’m telling you that the vast majority of people that are chronically sick have many large worms. That’s what I see. It’s really rare that they don’t. There could be somebody who has a lot of… I have one student who has a history of being exposed to ticks multiple times, and so for him, he’s passed a few worms, but for him it’s going to be more like the Borrelia and the co-infections, the smaller ones probably, because we haven’t seen a huge evidence.
But for a lot of my students, the large round worms are really common, and it does require strategy to get them to start coming out. The crazy thing is like even if you’re on five parasite drugs, because I test everything myself, so I tested well for five parasite drugs. Somebody who’s really sick would not take five parasite drugs at the same time, but once your load is low enough, they’re fine.
It doesn’t make you unfunctional at all. So taking five parasite drugs for five… no, seven days, and some of them are three times a day, some of them are two times a day, and I’m functioning well, great, and then I start to do the oxygen enemas on the seventh day. I just figured surely if you take five parasite drugs for roundworms and flatworms every day, two or three times a day, because in the literature, if you go to PDR.net, it’s oh yeah, take a three-day course and they’re gone, or, just a big dose on one day and you’re clear.
We’re not seeing that. So after seven days of five parasite drugs, then doing the oxidizing, the oxygen-type enema, which will kill parasites on contact where it reaches in the large intestine, and then they come out. And then I saw I was passing worms, but they were not really coming out. So the parasite drugs are not a perfect treatment either, and just even in my time of studying this, like praziquantel has a specific dosage, and it’s really helpful for flukes and flatworms.
But since then, the science is now showing that double the dosage is better. And so what we’re finding is that we first help the students to get ready to treat, so they’re feeling a lot better, like just with diet and lifestyle, daily bowel movements, so that they’re feeling better, because otherwise, if you start to treat when you feel terrible, it is not a good experience and a lot of people can’t do it.
So you’re first feeling a lot better, and then they have a plan based on their energy test, their symptoms, their diagnosis, what they’re passing, because they’re doing the enemas and they’re passing worms, and they’re really characteristic. You can really tell if it’s a roundworm or a tapeworm or a fluke. They’re very different shapes.
Lindsey: Yeah, tell me, let me pause you there.
Pam Bartha: Yeah.
Lindsey: Are they literally pulling them out of their stool and rinsing them off and sending photos? Is that how you’re identifying these? Because a lot of times people see things in the stool like . . .
Pam Bartha: Oh, totally.
Lindsey: Especially if they take Mimosa pudica, and it just is really the long, stringy stuff that’s coming out from the drug itself.
Pam Bartha: Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes it’s like the herb is bulking certain fecal matter, and no, these are like… They’re adding an oxygen agent to the water, and that oxygen agent is killing the worm, and yes, I’ve looked at thousands of pictures, and I will tell a student “No, that’s food. That’s partially digested food,” or you’re on Mimosa pudica, or you’re, using these bulking herbs. They’re like a noodle, like a spaghetti noodle. They’re white, and they’re dead, and they lay them on tinfoil or parchment paper. They’re clean because when you do the enema, it’s water, and so it’s not like you have to pull it out of your stool.
Years ago we did that because we didn’t know about these enemas, but the enemas are twofold. Number one, they’re helping to clear out the parasites out of the large intestine, and they’re helping to finish off the job that the parasite drugs are just not… With our understanding and our knowledge right now maybe higher doses will be warranted or combinations.
The problem is we’re just not researching this well. But I can tell you firsthand my own personal experience, what they recommend, what the traditional PDR.net as far as treating flukes, if you’ve had them chronically for years, it’s not going… When you start to challenge even AI and start to dig, and they’re like, “Yeah, this just hasn’t been studied well enough,” unfortunately.
Lindsey: Yeah. On the topic of AI, so I put into ChatGPT Health if parasites were associated with MS in the research, and it told me that they were associated, but in the opposite direction. That parasites were not only associated with a decrease in MS symptoms, but, under the theory that the immune system is being distracted by the parasites instead of attacking your own body, and that even worms were being investigated as a potential treatment for MS. So I’m curious about your response to that.
Pam Bartha: Yeah. That’s awesome that you brought that up. So I believe it’s the hookworm, and the truth is in science that all parasites, they cause disease, and they have ways to suppress the immune system. So what I’m concerned about is that immune suppression and immune modulation are two very different things, right?
If you’re putting a parasite in you, and a parasite by definition is a microbe that lives in you and causes you harm, and then we put it inside of us and it’s suppressing our inflammatory symptoms. And so our standard of care would say that’s because your immune system is attacking your tissue and that’s why we’re using immunosuppressive drugs.
That’s not been our experience working with students and that to me it doesn’t even make sense. Like number one, the primary job of the immune system is to defend us from infections in the body. And so why are we not even looking to see if there could be some infectious agents that are causing MS?
The panel that is in charge of diagnosing and treating MS, they draw up the guidelines as the McDonald criteria. They find no value in looking at spinal fluid for pathogens. They look at spinal fluid for antibodies, which means your immune system is fighting something, but they’re not looking to see what those antibodies were designed to fight in the immune system.
Same with the lesions. It’s documented very clearly that multiple parasites cause lesions in the central nervous system, and the immune system is fighting something, so it makes sense, like if the immune system is working and we know parasites cause lesions in the central nervous system, why would we not invest money and time into seeing could we find which microbes cause this?
Dr. Alan McDonald, who is, unfortunately he has passed now, he is a pathologist that was really well-respected. He didn’t spend millions of dollars. He literally just went to brain banks. He took the spinal fluid and brains of people that had a firm MS diagnosis and passed away. He examined them, and he found many small filarial worms in their spinal fluid, mating in clusters, waste material from them, and the larva, the eggs. He found egg developing tapeworms in two of the ten, but he found larva, so tapeworm larva, in every single MS subject he tested, like all 10 out of 10. And so we know through science that neurocysticercosis means that when the tapeworm larva get into the central nervous system, they produce these little bladder sacs in the central…
This is all known in science. So he found that and then there’s a huge history of over 100 years of research linking Borrelia or a bacteria that’s a spirochete to MS. There’s over 100 years of research linking a protozoa that’s a malaria Babesia type. These are peer-reviewed studies. Never been proven wrong, just dropped.
Again, everything switched at the 1950s, ’60s, and then we adopted autoimmune disease, right? So now, like to keep the autoimmune, and I believe it’s just that there’s a lot of money in autoimmune treatment. There’s not a lot of money in treating parasites. So to keep that going, it’s oh these worms, they’re immune modulatory.
It’s like no. Parasitic worms, they suppress the immune system, so the host, which is us, the immune system doesn’t kill them. So we already are dealing with a microbiome that is really out of balance, and that’s been shown in lots of research that dysbiosis is very significant in multiple sclerosis.
And then all these different microbes have been shown to be involved with MS and even fungus, like they found Candida higher in MS blood, in the central nervous system, even in brain cells. But it’s completely ignored. So then, do you want to put a different type of parasite in you that causes… you can just look to see what are the adverse effects, what does hookworm do in the body, right?
And it’s immunosuppressive, and it causes gut issues. And they use it for more than just MS. There’s some people that have, I was listening to a podcast, who have asthma.
Lindsey: Migraines. Oh, yeah, things like that.
Pam Bartha: I don’t know what his name is, but, and he’s, I think he’s selling his hookworms.
Lindsey: Yeah, I tried to have him on the podcast, but it never panned out. I think he didn’t want to be too high-profile.
Pam Bartha: So the thing is sure, you can do that, and you can take immunosuppressive drugs, but what quality of life do you want? For me, it’s like I want to decrease the burden.
I want to restore balance. I want to take the pressure off the immune system. I want to ride horses and climb mountains, and I’ve got eight grandkids. I don’t want to just manage disease, whether it’s with an immunosuppressive drug or if it’s parasites put inside of me. So to me, I think it feels like a really bad idea.
Lindsey: So do you think it’s possible that there is such a thing as MS that is autoimmune, and then there are a bunch of people who just have misdiagnoses that have parasites and candida and Lyme co-infections that are a whole other category of people where it’s called MS because it manifests the same way?
Is it possible there’s still those two things?
Pam Bartha: In my humble opinion, working with people that have arthritis and epilepsy and cancer and MS and Parkinson’s and ALS, which is really tough, and like all these different diseases, it is just that our microbiome is out of balance, and it depends which microbes get out of balance, where they live in the body, the symptoms they cause.
So for MS, they’re, to me, they’re all infectious diseases. There’s a component of all autoimmune, cancer and MS and neurological diseases that is in your microbiome is out of balance, and it’s not impossible to figure out which microbes are out of balance. There’s only four categories. It’s worms, protozoa, bacteria, and fungi.
And so the more people work at restoring balance in their microbiome, they recover. So with respect to MS, it’s not so much different types of MS. It’s like different levels of infestation. So in the early stages, there could be Borrelia, and even the MS Society funded a study showing that if they gave antibiotics to people with their first MS attack, there was a significant decrease in the people that actually went on to develop full-on MS.
So that’s really interesting. And then when we have MS, virtually 80-some percent of MS goes from relapsing remitting to progressive MS. That’s just in time. And what I believe is in the early days of MS, for a lot of us, your immune system still has a fighting chance. And so depending on your stress level, your sleep, your diet, your, hormones and babies and all the different things, your immune system has some recovery time.
So that’s where we have the attack and we can have recovery. And then if people are doing the right thing, they’re changing their diet, they’re really trying to exercise, they’re trying to do all the right things, they can sometimes go for a few years without getting another attack. But the problem is the parasites are still there.
And there comes a point in time where we have crisis in our life, where somebody, our loved one dies or becomes sick, or there’s finances or… And that’s really where we get the attack. And I’ve done so much research on how these parasites really respond to our stress hormones. And even when we’re sleep deprived, our immune system is so much weaker, and then it’s going to let the parasites get an upper hand on us.
So it has more to do with the degree of infestation, in my humble opinion, and the experience that we’ve done, than different MS. But you’re right, I have noticed in MS, and with the research also, that I don’t know that every single MS person that’s dealing with MS always has the malaria Babesia or always has a roundworm, but these are really big players in MS and other neurological diseases.
So some people are passing a lot of very big roundworms, and others are not. For myself, it wasn’t… That wasn’t a thing. For me, it was fluke. So that’s the frustrating thing, there’s never going to be a cookie cutter. You have to see. It depends where you lived, when you were vulnerable.
For me, it was in southern Alberta on a farm. I was on a lot of antibiotics. So when I was outside, we had lots of animals. So it’s like whatever parasites are in your environment, when your ecosystem has been compromised, and so that’s why it has to be an individualized treatment plan or recovery plan.
There’s things that are common, like diet and supporting the body and all those things that are good, but again, some people have a lot of flukes and others don’t. Some people have a ton of Borrelia and the co-infections. In others, it’s more roundworms with secondary. But it seems that the Lyme co-infections are definitely a big part of MS, as are the flukes for sure, roundworms, tape- the big worms are a big part.
And now the fungus is secondary. So, it still can be a problem if you’ve lived in a moldy home. Like, all of the mycotoxins are deadly. But fungus loves a garbage environment, so if you have a lot of worms and they’re dropping their dead bac-. . . Because they carry their own microbes, so they drop their dead bacteria and their waste.
Fungus loves that environment. So to focus on fungus without treating the big worms doesn’t work. To focus on Lyme, on Borrelia, without treating the worms, because some of these worms are loaded with Borrelia. So we work from top, from big to small in cycles, and knocking back each type of category of microbe and building back the good, and that’s where it’s just amazing the people that can have such amazing success.
Lindsey: Yeah. So am I gathering that you’re not doing Lyme testing, you’re not doing… you’re essentially just assuming everybody has some of all of it, or you can’t really find out, so you’re just using all of the medications with everybody essentially?
Pam Bartha: So for the parasite drugs, that is what they’re passing.
And the neat thing with the parasite drugs too is that there’s overlap. So one drug might be for roundworms, but another drug is for flatworms, but the flatworm medication also hurts the roundworms. It’s like a synergistic, helpful effect. So they’re using a general protocol that we got from doctors, that they’re working with their doctors, and they start on that, and they see what they’re passing, and they see what’s helping them.
And it’s pretty quick to hone in then on if they’re passing roundworms, then we know these three or four treatments are going to be more helpful for roundworms, or these are going to be more helpful for the flukes you’re passing. As far as the Borrelia, Babesia, all of those, they totally can work with practitioners.
We just haven’t seen a lot of success with antibiotics. I’m not against antibiotics for that, but we really like the liposomal herbs. And when you’re using the liposomal herbs, our students, they might be treating the big worms. They switch over to the break week where they’re knocking back Lyme because they have more symptoms of that, and they’re still passing worms on the herbs.
So there’s overlap as far as efficacy with helping. And so Borrelia, Babesia, there are certain medications that could be helpful, like even for Babesia, but we can’t even get them in Canada. And so we find just with all of the lifestyle changes, all of that, but also using different natural things, and Babesia is very sensitive to oxygen, so oxidative therapy is really helpful for that.
So we’re using more of the natural things for the smaller parasites, but for the bigger worms, we just have not been able to have the success with the bigger worms just using herbs unfortunately.
Lindsey: Okay. So are these herbs like the Byron White or like the Cryptoleptis or IS Bart? I’ve heard of all these.
Pam Bartha: Various ones. There’s lots of really great formulas. We just, because I have studied a lot under Dr. Klinghardt, we just use things from biopurehealth.com. So there’s CockTail, and that’s a great start, and they’re introducing it really slowly, and it’s liposomal, right? Or there’s Key Science, which is, there’s Ki Vita, which you’d have to make it liposomal.
But if they have a lot of Lyme, then it’s like . . . it’s just too hard for them to just buy all these bottles and make liposomal. And so if they can start on a really good formula, and there’s lots of good formulas, that’s just one that I mentioned. And if they just really start low and slow, they’re going to know are they feeling it?
Do they have to go really super slow? The more prep work they do too, the better they tolerate all of this. And so yeah, those herbs can be helpful, but we’re not only doing those herbs. And then the oxygen therapy is so incredibly helpful. People can use ozone.
Lindsey: How do you create that? Like, how do you make an oxygen-infused enema?
Pam Bartha: So I can’t legally say the name of it on the social media platforms. I don’t want you to get censored. So yeah, so it is… It’s just like they can find it by following me. I’ve got it on Rumble, but I can’t say it on any of the other platforms. But it’s very super safe, and it’s been used for decades.
But ever since COVID, now there is a huge continuing education group called COMUSAV, and they’re actually teaching doctors, researchers, they’re studying it all over the world. So the cat is out of the bag, but still, you say that word on the main platforms, and it is taken out. But it’s just a very dilute amount of it basically puts oxygen in the water, and that is what your body uses, oxidative, therapy.
Okay. Your body uses that for killing pathogens too. So it’s really helpful. So something like Babesia, you can actually use that in your blood. Ozone you can too, but this one is really cost-effective for my students. We used to use ozone, but this is just so cheap and it’s so easy, and it’s so safe, and so yeah, that’s what we use.
But yeah, I can leave it with you. I just… You can share it with your listeners, but I just-
Lindsey: that’s fine. I don’t want to get my thing cut off. I’ll-
Pam Bartha: No that’s why we say it’s an oxidative-
Lindsey: I’ll send the students to you, and they can find you and . . .
Pam Bartha: Yeah
Lindsey: . . . and find out the methods.
Pam Bartha: Yes.
Lindsey: So can you share any anonymous stories of students you’ve had, like a couple cases?
Pam Bartha: Oh, yeah. So one is not an MS case. Her name is Tracy. Her videos [and here] are on our YouTube channel. You can hear her. I think she was, like, 70 years old, a retired dentist. Her husband’s a dentist. She was bedridden not this May, but the May before, and her husband did everything.
He had to cook. She was literally in bed. She had braces for her hands, arthritic. She was using a walker if she ever got out of bed, and she, because she’s a healthcare professional, it made sense to her, and she just ran with it, right? And she was ready to start treating worms within I would say two weeks, and then she was treating really aggressively and doing fine.
But she got out of bed. She was able . . . now she is texting me on her bike, exercising. She can babysit her grandchildren, and she’s never babysat before, and entertain them and play with them in the pool, and she travels, and she’s actually studying parasitology. She tells the story of . . . she had this big jar of worms, and her husband took it to work to show the other dentists, and talk about humble pie.
But just her life is back, and it completely saved her life. So that’s somebody who doesn’t even have MS. She had multiple diseases, inflammatory bowel, arthritis. She thought that she wasn’t even going to make it because her heart was going off so bad. I think it was, like, a Christmas or two ago, and now she’s just thriving in her 70s.
There’s another one just to go younger. There’s a few young ladies that we started coaching years ago. Lisa May is a nurse from Canada. She had multiple sclerosis. She was infertile She had terrible cognitive function. She was in brain studies because her brain was so compromised, and she followed the program.
Literally within six weeks of just getting ready to treat, I don’t even think she was treating yet, she was at a family dance dancing, and then she followed through and treated. And the thing is that she treated even before we knew about the bigger worms, and so she was just using herbs. So back in the day, probably if you’re earlier, and that’s the problem, is that I think the more advanced, the more helpful the parasite drugs are. But she couldn’t treat anymore because she, number one, got to the point where she’s completely MS free, went back to work, couldn’t work in the hospital anymore, so she started a clinic. She overcame the infertility.
She has three little girls right now, and she has her own clinic. And because she was, like, having babies and nursing, you can’t treat parasites really well, so she’s going to do that now. And then Marissa worked with us for years. She has a wellness clinic now. She’s completely recovered from MS. She was like, couldn’t function, couldn’t take care of her home or her family.
And we just have a lot of people that have, especially young ladies, that they recover, they write books, they start podcasts, they start wellness clinics, and they’re just on fire. And now they’re like 10 years, and they’re still… Melissa is one who had to relearn how to walk. She actually went into a coma, which is not super common with MS.
And she did my program, and now 10 years later, she’s never seen a neurologist since. She went back to work right after the program. She was in advanced kickboxing classes, just amazing. She started her own health food company, wrote a book. She’s buffed. She’s really in good shape. And her video I got an updated video from her I believe it was last year. And yeah, and I just got an update from Terry, who’s one of the successes people can hear from, and she’s still doing well. I don’t hear from them for years, and then they’re like, “Hi, Pam, just wanted to let you know I’m doing really well.” And she was literally in a scooter, and her mom died of MS, and so when she found me, she was just waiting to die because she knew what happened to her mom.
And in three months, she was able to start using crutches and start getting on her stationary bike and doing squats in the doorway, and then after that, she got well. Her neurologist said, “You don’t have to come back anymore because you’re passing all your tests.” And I just wanted to mention, too, that when you become symptom-free, it doesn’t mean that all the lesions are gone in your central nervous system.
Lindsey: I was going to ask about that,
Pam Bartha: We would like them to be gone. Yeah.
Lindsey: And aren’t you losing your myelin sheath, in theory, in MS?
Pam Bartha: That’s a whole different topic. So a lesion means that there’s a pocket of inflammation, and it always, the research, and they’ve known this for 100 years, like that it’s centered around a vein.
So this inflammation is centered around a vein, and that means that there’s immune activity. So the true proper term for MS is immune-mediated, so the experts will say it’s immune, meaning that the immune system is involved, the immune system is active. But autoimmune, it’s never been proven. They’ve never found an autoantigen.
So when people just say that, it’s not accurate. And so with these lesions, we don’t want them there, and if you keep treating, we’ve had students that have had MRIs after and they’ve healed over. But what this means is if you become completely symptom-free and you still have some lesions, it means that there’s a lot going on in the gut, way more than we ever thought.
We always thought it’s all in the brain, but it’s in the gut. I have students that do this oxygen enema that are severely disabled, and then they can start standing out of their wheelchair. And the crazy thing is that after doing a deeper enema, right after the enema, they’re able to lift their legs up higher that quickly.
So that tells you there’s a lot going on, even in just the large intestine. We can’t even reach the small intestine with enemas, just the large. And so there is this highway of nerves from our gut to our brain. It’s called the gut-brain axis. And so whatever is happening, the inflammation that’s happening in our gut, in the digestive tract, is impacting our neurological system tremendously.
So that’s a really important thing. So the lesions, like there’s people over 50 that have lesions that don’t have MS. There’s people that have Crohn’s disease, that have autism. So migraines, that’s another place where you’d have lesions. So we don’t want them there. But that just means that microbes have moved into the central nervous system, and so the biggest base camp is the gut, and we have to correct that first.
That takes a lot of pressure off the immune system because, as you teach, like the immune system is mostly located in that area. And then our immune system, you’re taking some pressure off, and then it can do more of what it’s supposed to do, dealing with the infections in different parts of the body better.
Lindsey: So what would you say to somebody who has been through the conventional medical system and is on immunosuppressive drugs for MS and is doing well, and they’re like, “I don’t need that other solution because I’m doing fine.”
Pam Bartha: And that’s the great thing about living in free countries, is that we can choose our healthcare, and we should be able to choose our healthcare.
I don’t know that they’re doing fine. Like what I’ve seen, because I follow people for years and years, and so they might be on an immunosuppressive drug, but then they’ve changed their diet and they’re exercising and they’re doing… They’ve changed their lifestyle. So is the drug helping them, or is it the changes in their life that has really given their immune system some extra strength, right?
Taken some pressure off. So what happens with those people, they might be fine for a few years, but then they get the attack. The parasites do not leave the body. They live in us. They keep reproducing. They take over more ground, and the, the… What determines how quickly they take over too much ground is our lifestyle.
It’s are we getting enough sleep? Are we active? Are we getting sunshine? Are we getting enough nutrition? Are we having a balanced life, right? What’s our diet like? Are we eating a lot of carbohydrates? Because the processed carbohydrates are the favorite food for these parasites. So all of those things make a difference.
But I honestly believe that most people, if they knew there was a cause of MS, and they knew they could treat the cause, and they knew they could have a better quality of life, and they knew that they would not be at risk of the adverse effects of the immunosuppressive drugs, they would choose not to use them.
Because these immunosuppressive drugs, the ones that are really commonly used right now, the adverse effect is cancer, and yes, they do get cancer. But the thing is, it’s a free country, but even though they’re free countries, we have a right to know all of this information, right?
And we have a right to be able to treat parasites if we want. And in countries like Canada, it’s virtually impossible to treat parasites here. It’s almost illegal. We have pharmacies that have all of the parasite drugs, and they send them to practitioners in the US, but in Canada our general practitioners, their hands are tied.
They’re not allowed to treat parasites. You have to get a stool test. It goes to our labs, and there they don’t even look for worms. We’ve had students put worms in there, and they don’t even acknowledge it. They don’t even . . .
Lindsey: Literally, “Here’s my dead worm. I’ll lay it on top of the sample.”
Pam Bartha: I know.
But I think what they do is they have procedures, right? And so they literally just probably pour it into something, and they get the liquid, and they’re looking for, they’re looking for bacteria and protozoa. They’re not even looking for worms. So they might not even see the worm. Like that’s… And that’s the sad thing. Our doctors don’t even have microscopes in the… They can’t… They’re separated from all of this.
Lindsey: So are people having to use a naturopath or… I got the impression when we had our pre-interview call that people are able to order these medications themselves without going through a doctor, or do they always have to through a doctor?
Pam Bartha: It depends on the country. Yeah, it depends on- but in the US. So in the United States, yes, and in Mexico and in the UK, and in many countries that, yes, you can order these parasite drugs without a prescription, absolutely. But . . .
Lindsey: Through a Canadian pharmacy or through an American pharmacy?
Pam Bartha: They’re online pharmacies from even things like India and Thailand, and they’re pharmaceutical grade for humans. They’re just cheaper. Okay. They’re a lot cheaper.
Lindsey: Yeah. No, I’m wondering because I was using Rifaximin, a common drug for SIBO, through a Canadian pharmacy, and I just got a notice that come October 22nd [since delayed to 1/20/27], the law is changing about that, and that access to online pharmacies is going to be severely curtailed.
Pam Bartha: Things are changing with all these tariff things going on. I have no idea what’s going on. But I know still that, number one, yes we have Canadian pharmacies that have everything here. They’re very knowledgeable in the parasite drugs and treating them. They’ve always been able to bring it or sell it to the US.
I don’t know if they still can, but there’s other options, and as far as I know that’s not… I don’t know what’s happening with the tariffs with pharmaceutical products. It probably it has more to do with that than other things right now. So we’ll see. Yeah.
Lindsey: I’ll put a link to the organization that is doing advocacy about this, because I was just informed by this Canadian pharmacy I’d used. So again, I’m a little concerned because I’d like to be able to continue to have access to Rifaximin.
Pam Bartha: Yeah. I would love that contact information too, because we need to get the word out. Yeah. We really need to create awareness number one, with people, and then creating awareness with practitioners, and then there’s got to be pressure put on our governments to say, “Hey, this is just not okay.”
We have to give people access to this because it’s so fundamental, and it makes such a difference in people’s lives. And if we treated parasites early before we had chronic disease, we would not have the MS. We would not… Like right now, even with cancer, like, all the parasite drugs are really effective against different types of parasites.
So if you, if we learned how to manage the microbes in our body better, we could avoid so much suffering, and we could save so many billions of dollars, and it would just be amazing, but that’s not where we’re at yet.
Lindsey: Yeah. Yeah. So I’m just going to say that I’m going to put links in the show notes, and then also obviously link to your website of some of the research sites that you sent me. But where can people connect with you, and how do they… talk a little bit about your program.
Pam Bartha: So we have the Live Disease Free plan, and it is available for people that really need hand-holding or else people that want to do more of a self-directed, maybe they’re not as sick. And in that plan, it’s just very step-by-step.
This is the teacher in me. We’re getting ready to treat, and that’s… We’re doing all the things we can do, and that really gives us the greatest success and allows us to recover more quickly, and it’s doable. We’re not going to be flat-lined on the couch. So it’s just step-by-step plan that you get ready to treat, building your own personal treatment plan.
And you have to know this because even if you find a practitioner that will help you, they don’t have experience with the parasite drugs. Actually, one lady reached out last week, and she said her practitioner, who must be medical, unless he’s in Arizona, but he did energy testing, felt she had flatworms, put her on a flatworm medication, and she ended up having an anaphylactic reaction.
And I said, “But that’s because you’re not ready to treat. You can’t start treating when you’re…” And she doesn’t have MS, but she has a very heavy infestation. So you have to be the director of your health, and that’s what this program teaches you, so that you can do things safely. You can work with your practitioners in a respectful manner, where you’re giving them information.
And if it’s a good practitioner, they’ll work with you as long as they know that it’s safe. So they can find that on our website, livediseasefree.com. I think you’ll have a link that you are going to share with your audience, with your listeners. That would be great. And yeah, then basically they will watch my masterclass training where I go more into the steps we take to recover, some amazing case studies, and then just some basic research showing some of the more common parasites that are causing chronic disease.
And then they can reach out if they’re like, “Wow, this is what I really need,” they can reach out and see if it’s a good fit for them.
Lindsey: Okay. Great. Thank you so much for sharing this. This is really new information. I have not had tons of information on parasites over the years simply because I don’t find them on stool tests ever, and I’m like, “I don’t know if they’re a real thing, honestly,” but this is interesting hearing about this, and I definitely encourage people to follow the links and to look at some of the research that backs it up.
Pam Bartha: Thank you, Lindsey. Really appreciate it.
Lindsey: Thank you so much.
If you’re dealing with gut health issues of any type (diarrhea, constipation, bloating, SIBO, IMO, H2S SIBO/ISO, IBS, IBD, gastritis, GERD, H pylori, diverticulitis, candida, etc.) or have an autoimmune disease and need some help, I see individual clients to help them resolve their digestive issues or reverse autoimmune disease naturally, You’re welcome to set up a free, 30-minute breakthrough session to see if you’d like to work with me. I also have my own two products, Tributyrin-Max, which is particularly helpful for loose stool and diarrhea as it slows your motility and firms up your stool, and SBI powder, which is an all around gut pathogen binder, which is super safe and won’t harm beneficial bacteria, and is usually the first line of treatment I educate my clients about in order to avoid stronger antimicrobial herbs.
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